Το πρώτο ελληνικό φόρουμ για τον κόσμο του A Song of Ice and Fire και την σειρά Game of Thrones του HBO

Μην το μετακινείτε γιατί δεν φαίνεται η πρώτη είδηση!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Καλώς ήρθες, Επισκέπτης!
Είδατε τον 5ο κύκλο και μείνατε έτσι Shocked + scared + Crying or Very sad ;;; Σας περιμένουμε εδώ για συζήτηση και θεωρίες!
Θα τελειώσει ποτέ ο Martin το Winds of Winter;
Τα μέλη της κοινότητας μας είναι 165, διαδώστε μας για να γίνουμε περισσότεροι!

    R+L=J

    Μοιραστείτε

    Bronn the Sellsword
    Χωρικός
    Χωρικός

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 78
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 20

    Armory
    : Lannister Lannister

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Bronn the Sellsword Την / Το Κυρ Ιουν 24, 2012 12:10 pm

    Για μισό λεφτό!
    Αν ο Τζον είναι παιδί ενός Ταργκέρυεν και ενός Σταρκ, τότε είναι και fire και ice!
    Μ' αρέσει.


      ____________

    And who are you,
    the proud lord said,
    that I must bow so low?

    Only a cat of different coat,
    That´s all the truth I know.
    In a coat of gold or a coat of red,
    A lion still has claws.
    And mine are long and sharp, My Lord,
    As long and sharp as yours.

    And so he spoke, and so he spoke,
    that Lord of Castamere,
    but now the rains weep over his hall
    with no one there to hear.

    Yes, now the rains weep over his hall,
    And not a soul to hear.


    Lady Arya Stark
    Χωρικός
    Χωρικός

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 15
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 18/06/2012
    Τόπος : Winterfell

    Armory
    : 4

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Lady Arya Stark Την / Το Τρι Ιουν 26, 2012 12:12 am

    Απορια: Αν,λεω,ααααν ο Τζον ειναι γιος Rhaegar-Lyanna και αααν το μαθαινε αυτο ο Ρομπερτ (που ετσι οπως ειναι τωρα δεν νομιζω να το μαθει στον αλλο κοσμο) θα τον σκοτωνε λογω το οτι θα ειχε αιμα των Ταργκαρυεν η θα τον λατρευε λογω το οτι θα ειχε αιμα των Σταρκ και ειδικα της Lyanna? thinking


      ____________
    When the sun has set no candle can replace it




    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Τρι Ιουν 26, 2012 8:03 pm

    Αυτό που υποθέτει η πλειοψηφία είναι ότι θα ήθελε να τον σκοτώσει,επειδή θα ήταν η "απόδειξη" όσων έκανε ο Rhaegar στη Lyanna,αλλά αν τον αγαπούσαν πολύ ο Ned και η Lyanna μπορεί να επηρεαζόταν και να μην τον μισούσε και τόοσο πολύ winking

    Νικόλα,ναι Cool

    Και αν η Lyanna είναι ice και ο Rhaegar fire,τότε ο Jon είναι το song και ο αδιαφιλονίκητος πρωταγωνιστής lol


      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

    Alyn Frey
    Χωρικός
    Χωρικός

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 86
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 08/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 782
    Τόπος : The Palace.

    Armory
    : 4

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Alyn Frey Την / Το Κυρ Ιουλ 01, 2012 12:06 am

    Τώρα που το λες, ναι συμφωνώ. Δεν γίνεται δηλαδή να εμφανίζονται μαζί, η Lyanna πρώτα απ'όλα δεν νομίζω να έμενε έτσι αν την είχαν απαγάγει, είναι σκληρό καρύδι, πιστεύω πως το'κανε επειδή το ήθελε! Είναι οι πιο σίγουροι για γονείς του Jon μιας και όλα αυτά ταιριάζουν χρονολογικά όσο δεν ταιριάζουν σε κανέναν άλλον. Θα το δούμε στην συνέχεια αυτό!


      ____________
    I need you to be perfect for me today.
    Can you do that?

    Some Secrets...:


    Queen in the North
    Φύλακας του Βορρά
    Φύλακας του Βορρά

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 5866
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 10/07/2012
    Ηλικία : 21
    Τόπος : Winterfell

    Armory
    : Stark Stark

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Queen in the North Την / Το Τετ Ιουλ 11, 2012 4:10 pm

    Εγω ειχα βρει αυτο εδω
    http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/jon.html

    RHAEGAR TARGARYEN AND LYANNA STARK

    At first glance, this suggestion seems ludicrous. Rhaegar and Lyanna? There’s no direct evidence or personal claims to support this, as opposed to both Ashara Dayne and Wylla. Yet there are subtle, benign clues. Lots of them, in fact. And the more one looks at them, the more one is convinced that this could be the answer. The theory is a complicated one. First, the entire possible story will be given, in order for the reader to gain full understanding of the theory, and then I’ll provide various pieces of evidence for each portion of this hypothosis, complete with quotes and page numbers (and lots of ‘em!). Finally, I’ll ponder on why this could have happened.

    1) The Story

    Rhaegar Targaryen married Elia Martell, and fathered two children off her, Rhaenys and Aegon. Yet the marriage was political, and at the Harrenhal tourney in the year of the false spring, Rhaegar met his true love--Lyanna Stark. Together, the pair fell in love, and ran off together some time after, to the Tower of Joy in the Red Mountains of Dorne.

    There, Rhaegar impregnated Lyanna. However, Rhaegar had to go leave to fight Robert, and three of the Kingsguard were sent to the Tower of Joy to protect Lyanna and her unborn child. Somehow, Eddard and his battle companions discovered Lyanna’s location. They assumed that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, and did not join him by her own free will.

    Eddard and the northmen reach the Tower of Joy, and battle ensues with the Kingsguard. At the end, only Eddard and the crannogman Howland Reed are left alive. Eddard enters the tower to find Lyanna. She has given birth to the baby, but, due to complications of childbirth, she is dying. She makes Eddard promise not to reveal the child’s true parentage to anyone, lest Robert’s hatred of Targaryens lead him to kill the child. Then she dies.

    Eddard names the child Jon. He, Jon and possibly Howland all ride to Starfall, to return the greatsword Dawn which used to belong to Arthur Dayne until he was killed in the fighting. There, perhaps Eddard and Wylla conspire to pretend Wylla is Jon’s mother, to protect Jon. Also, Ashara kills herself (for the possible reasons, see above).

    Eddard then rides north with Jon, claiming the son is his and Wylla’s to protect Jon from Robert’s Targaryen hatred.

    2) The Evidence

    a) Rhaegar’s Personality--True Love With Lyanna?

    Σπόιλερ:
    At the beginning of the series, the reader comes off with a general disliking of Rhaegar Targaryen. However, most opinions about Rhaegar comes from Robert. While Robert makes Rhaegar out to be an evil man and a rapist, this could be because Rhaegar stole away Lyanna, Robert’s true love. Clearly, no other character has this dislike for Rhaegar, and most other characters seems to repsect and adore him. Just a brief selection:

    He {Ned} wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels. Somehow he thought not. --GoT, pg. 381.

    The knight {Jorah} gave her a curious look. “You are your brother’s sister, in truth.”
    “Viserys?” She {Dany} did not understand.
    "No,” he answered. “Rhaegar.”--GoT, pg.668

    {Dany said,} “There is some good to be said of my father, surely?”
    “There is, Your Grace. Of him, and those who came before him. Your grandfather Jaehaerys and his brother, their father Aegon, you mother...and Rhaegar. Him most of all.” --SoS, pg. 815

    So it appears that Eddard, Jorah and Barristan all disagree with Robert and think that Rhaegar was a fine, upstanding citizen...hardly the sort of man who would abduct a young girl against her will. Perhaps even Robert realizes this:

    Confused, the king shook his head. “Rhaegar...Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove that spike right through his black armor into his black heart and he died at my feet...Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her.”--GoT, pg. 430

    The quote might possibly be interpreted as Robert admitting that Lyanna went willingly with Rhaegar. For this seems like a likely possibility--Lyanna fell in love with Rhaegar, and went off with him. We know she had no great love for Robert:

    “Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some young girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.”--GoT, pg. 379

    So clearly Lyanna did not truly love Robert, and Rhaegar was not the evil man who Robert made him out to be. So it seems likely that the pair fell in love, and we have some proof to support this. For example, at the tourney at Harrenhal in the year of the false spring, Rhaegar won the jousting contest. But instead of crowning his own wife Elia the queen of love and beauty, he crowned Lyanna (SoS, pg. 486). Ned reflects on this while hallucinating:

    Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, as blue as frost.
    Ned Stark reached out his hand to grasp the flowery crown, but beneath the pale blue petals, the thorns lay hidden...
    --GoT, pg. 631

    This is obviously a significant moment, for Eddard to remember it while locked in a cell. And we have another reference to Lyanna falling for Rhaegar at the Harrenhal tourney, from Meera’s story about the Knight of the Laughing Tree:

    “The dragon prince sang a song so sad it made the wolf maid sniffle, but when her pup brother teased her for crying she poured wine over his head.”
    --SoS, pg. 281

    The dragon prince is Rhaegar; the wolf maid is Lyanna. It certainly seems implied that she is falling in love with him. And another hint from Meera:

    “And the mystery knight should defeat all challengers and name the wolf maid the queen of love and beauty.”
    “She was,” said Meera. “But that’s a sadder story.”
    --SoS, pg. 283

    And then we have several other references which are ambiguous, almost deliberately so:

    Yet sometimes Dany would picture it the way it had been...Her brother Rhaegar battling the Usurper in the bloody waters of the Trident and dying for the woman he loved...
    ---GoT, pg. 30

    And when Dany sees visions in the House of the Undying:

    Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman’s name...
    ---CoK, pg. 706

    In both these quotes, GRRM avoids using the word ‘Elia’ and instead uses ‘the woman’ or ‘the woman he loved’ suggesting that it could be someone besides Elia...Lyanna, perhaps?

    b) The Kingsguard, the Tower of Joy and Lyanna’s Death.

    Σπόιλερ:
    On page 424 of Game of Thrones, Eddard is dreaming while under the influence of the milk of the poppy for his injured leg. During this time, he has a dream about his fight with the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. GRRM has stated that this dream is not completely literal (Ned was dreaming, after all) but some basic facts can be gleaned from it.

    One is that three men of the Kingsguard, Ser Arthur Dayne, Ser Gerold Hightower, and Ser Oswell Whent, were present at the Tower of Joy. This is curious since, as far as the reader knows, there is no royal blood present at the Tower of Joy--just Lyanna. Then why are they there, instead of with Viserys or Daenerys? (Rhaegar and Aerys are dead by this time.)

    The obvious reason is, of course, that Lyanna is carrying Rhaegar’s baby, and the Kingsguard are there to protect that portion of the royal blood. But would Rhaegar trust these men with such a secret? Probably. Barristan told Dany that Rhaegar’s oldest and truest friend was Arthur Dayne (SoS, pg. 90), so he was probably just the man to trust with such a secret.

    The Kingsguard evidentally had an effect on Eddard. On GoT, pg. 502, just the sight of three men in white cloaks sends a chill through him.

    Then there comes the curious matter of Lyanna’s death. From Eddard’s thoughts on GoT, pg. 43, we learn that she died of a fever, in a room that smelled of ‘blood and roses.’ Since the fighting took place outside the tower,. we can theorize that the blood came from Lyanna’s childbirth. We know the blood came from Lyanna, because on GoT, pg. 424, Eddard remembers ‘Lyanna in her bed of blood.’ Her bed of blood--the blood came from her, and blood is not usually the effect of a fever. And GRRM has been known to liken this term to birthing--on GoT, pg. 674, Mirri Maz Duur says she knows the secrets of the ‘bloody bed,’ meaning birthing.

    c) “Promise Me, Ned”

    Σπόιλερ:
    “I was with her when she died,” Ned reminded the king. “She wanted to come home, to rest beside Brandon and Father.” He could still hear her at times. Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned. The fever had taken her strength and her voice had been faint as a whisper, but when he gave his word, the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes.
    ---GoT, pg. 43

    From the quote above, Eddard implies that his promise to Lyanna was to bury her at Winterfell. However, he recalls the quote throughout the book at the strangest times and places, suggesting that the promise meant something more. From above, the simple phrase ‘the fear had gone out of his sister’s eyes’ suggests that the promise is something deeper--why should she be so scared about where she is buried? It has been suggested that what Eddard was really promising was to keep Jon’s identity a secret, and this can be supported by the manner in which he recalls Lyanna’s words.

    “You avenged Lyanna at the Trident,” Ned said, halting beside the king. Promise me, Ned, she had whispered.
    --GoT, pg. 116

    This quote could be explained away by the fact that Eddard referred to Lyanna. But Robert killing Rhaegar doesn’t have much to do with anything if Ned promised to bury Lyanna at Winterfell. The quote fits better if Ned’s promise was concerning Jon, because it would fit with Robert’s hatred of Targaryens.

    He remembered Rhaegar’s infant son, the red ruin of his skull, and the way the king had turned away, as he had turned away in Darry’s audience hall not so long ago. He could still hear Sansa pleading, as Lyanna had pleaded once.
    ---GoT, pg. 199

    Now this is interesting. Why in the world would Eddard compare Sansa pleading for Lady’s life to Lyanna pleading to be buried in Winterfell--especially in the context of Robert’s hatred of Targaryens? This references makes absolutely no sense unless one accepts that Lyanna was pleading to keep Jon’s identity secret from Robert.

    “I will,” Ned promised her. That was his curse. Robert would swear undying love and forget them before evenfall, but Ned Stark kept his vows. He thought of the promises he made to Lyanna as she lay dying, and the price he’d paid to keep them.
    --GoT, pg. 380

    Again, this doesn’t make much sense in the context of Ned promising Lyanna to bury her at Winterfell. What price would he had to have paid to do this? If the promise concerned Jon, on the other hand, the quote makes sense. Ned has certainly paid a price by claiming Jon is his own son, especially with Catelyn.

    The next quote comes from Eddard’s dream:

    “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
    --GoT, pg. 501

    Eddard seems to have a lot of violent and troubled dreams concerning his promise to Lyanna. Why? It seems unnatural for him to place that much importance on simply burying her at Winterfell.

    “Eat the bastard. Don’t care if you choke on him. Promise me, Ned.” {said Robert.}

    “I promise.” “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s voice echoed.
    --GoT, pg. 505

    This quote can simply be attributed to Eddard likening his promises to Robert on his deathbed to his promises to Lyanna on hers.

    So with so many references to these promises, if seems like they were very important in Eddard’s mind; certainly more important than ensuring Lyanna was buried at Winterfell. They could very well be about Jon; if not, then of something of equal importance.

    d) Blue Winter Roses

    Σπόιλερ:
    Along with ‘Promise me, Ned,’ Eddard also remembers blue roses at the strangest times. This can also be attribuited to Lyanna. She loved the smell of blue winter roses. (GoT, pg. 631) And the crown for the queen of love and beauty that Rhaegar tossed her was made of the flower. (GoT, pg. 631). Of course, Ned’s references to blue roses could just be due to his grief over how Lyanna died, but they could mean something more...

    Promise me, she had cried, in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Promise me, Ned...Ned remembered the way she had smiled then, how tightly her fingers had clutched his as she gave up her hold on life, the rose petals spilling from her palm, dead and black...”I bring her flowers when I can,”{Ned} said. “Lyanna was...fond of flowers.”
    --GoT, pg. 43

    The room in which Lyanna died smelled of roses, and she held some in her hand. Interesting. If Rhaegar knew that they were her favorite flower, he could have been trying to make her happy.

    As they came together in a rush of steel and shadow, he could hear Lyanna screaming. “Eddard!” she called. A storm of rose petals blew across a blood-streaked sky, as blue as the eyes of death.
    --GoT, pg. 425

    Her {Cersei’s} eyes burned, green fire in the dusk, like the lioness that was her sigil. “The night of our wedding feast, the first time we shared a bed, he called me by your sister’s name. He was on top of me, in me, stinking of wine, and he whispered Lyanna.”
    Ned thought of pale blue roses, and for a moment he wanted to weep.
    --GoT, pg. 480

    “Promise me, Ned,” Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.
    --GoT, pg. 501

    The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.
    --CoK, pg. 809

    The real clincher comes with a vision Dany has in the House of the Undying.

    A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.
    --CoK, pg. 707

    This quote strongly implies that Lyanna’s blue roses have something to do with the Wall (the ‘wall of ice’) This makes perfect sense because Jon, the product of Lyanna and her blue roses, is on the Wall.

    One more final clue comes on CoK, pg. 746. Ygritte tells Jon a story about Bael the Bard. Bael picked a blue winter rose from Winterfell’s greenhouse unasked; a year later, he returned the son he fathered off Lord Stark’s daughter in payment for that rose. Since Rhaegar is known to be a great fan of music and songs, it is likely that he heard this story, and was fulfilling his romantic outlook on life by imitating Bael in the blue roses.

    e) Lies, Broken Promises and Troubled Dreams

    Σπόιλερ:
    Since Eddard is described as an honorable man, one would think that he would feel guilty over the fact that he is lying to the world about Jon’s parentage. Well, he certainly feels guilty over something. Throughout the book, there are numerous references to the fact that he feels guilty for telling lies. These lies most likely have to do with Jon or something as equally serious.

    Troubled sleep was no stranger to him {Ned}. He had lived lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night.
    --GoT, pg. 115

    Since Jon is fourteen years old at this time, this strongly implies that Eddard’s fourteen years of lies are about Jon. The fact that they still haunt him at night fits in with Eddard’s dreams about blue roses and the Tower of Joy.

    “She whined and looked at me and a felt so ‘shamed, but it was right, wasn’t it? The queen would have killed her.”

    “It was right,” her father said. “And even the lie was...not without honor.”
    --GoT, pg. 222

    Eddard could easily be comparing Arya’s honorable lies to his own.

    Some secrets are safer kept hidden. So secrets are too dangerous to share, even with those you love and trust. {Ned thought}
    --GoT, pg. 357

    This seems to imply that Ned has secrets of his own.

    The rain had driven everyone under their roofs. It beat down on Ned’s head, warm and relentless as old guilts.
    --GoT, pg. 379

    The deceit made him {Ned} feel soiled. The lies we tell for love, he thought. May the gods forgive me.
    --GoT, pg. 504

    All these above quotes seen to suggest that Eddard has been lying about something for fourteen years. If not Jon, then what? There are probably other options, but Jon seems the most likely at this point.

    f) Thoughts Concerning Jon

    Σπόιλερ:
    Most of the above quotes had to do with pointing evidence at Lyanna or Rhaegar. However, a sizeable number of quotes do suggest that Jon is mroe than just a normal bastard boy. For one, Eddard never seems to refer to Jon as his son, which is interesting.

    “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know.”
    --GoT, pg. 65

    Note that Eddard calls Jon ‘my blood,’ not ‘my son.’ This could be a hint that Eddard is still trying to tell as much truth as possible, because Jon is still his nephew if he is Lyanna’s son. And then, on GoT, pg. 486:

    Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body. He did not know. He prayed he never would.

    Eddard lists off all his children in his mind, but conviently does not include Jon on the list. Interesting.

    Eddard then has some more thoughts about Jon while locked in a cell underneath the Red Keep, waiting to die.

    The thought of Jon filled Ned with a sense of shame, a sorrow too deep for words. If only he could see the boy again, sit and talk with him...
    --GoT, pg. 635

    Why, out of all his children, does Eddard want to talk with Jon before he dies? Could he finally want to reveal to him the secret of his parentage? Of course, Ned could be wanting to do this even if Jon’s mother was someone else, so this quote does not just apply to the Lyanna-Rhaegar scenario. Two pages earlier, Eddard asks Varys if he would deliver a letter. Perhaps Eddard wanted to put the secret of Jon’s mother in that letter for Varys to deliver.

    Bran has an interesting dream which may add to the evidence.

    “I dreamed about the crow last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”

    “And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.

    “It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so that any of the other crow dreams.
    --GoT, pg. 730

    In the series thus far, most characters’ dreams have hinted at being prophetic or somewhat magical. The fact that Eddard was trying to tell Bran that there was something about Jon in the crypts may suggest that a secret about Jon is down there--near Lyanna’s statue, maybe?

    Jon has a similar dream:

    “I’m walking down this long empty hall...opening doors, shouting names...the castle is always empty...the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run, then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me...I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go down anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream...that’s when I always wake.”
    --GoT, pg. 267

    This also seems to hint that Jon also has some sort of destiny in the crypts--again, perhaps his heritage? One more thing seems to hint at Jon’s parents:

    “King,” croaked the raven. The bird flapped across the air to land on Mormont’s shoulder. “King,” it said again, strutting back and forth.
    “He likes that word,” Jon said, smiling.
    “An easy word to say. An easy word to like.”
    “King,” the bird said again.
    “I think he means for you to have a crown, my lord.”
    “The realm has three kings already, and that’s two too many for my liking.” Mormont striked the raven under the beak with his finger, but all the while his eyes never left Jon Snow.
    --CoK, pg. 105

    This could be the random spoutings of a raven. Or it could be a subtle clue that Jon, as the only surviving son of Rhaegar, would be the king of Westeros if the Targaryens still reigned.

    Yet another possible clue comes in the physical appearances of the characters. It has been stated numerous times throughout the series that Jon and Arya are similar in physical appearance. Arya is also often compared to Lyanna, such as Eddard's statement on GoT, pg. 221. Through logical sequence, Lyanna is indirectly being compared to Jon. (Lyanna looks like Arya and Arya looks like Jon.)

    As one last tidbit of evidence, it can be said that if Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, it fits with the series name ‘A Song of Ice and Fire.’ Jon seems to be shaping as the main character, and it woudl fit the series title if his parents were Rhaegar (fire) and Lyanna (ice).

    3) But Why?
    Σπόιλερ:
    The way most characters describe it, Rhaegar seems to be a completely honest and honorable man. So why would he betray his wife and run off with Lyanna to father a legitmate child?

    This is a question that cannot fully be answered, except for one vision that Dany has in the House of the Undying on CoK, pg. 527. In this scene, Dany sees Rhaegar and Elia standing over their newborn son Aegon. Rhaegar says that Aegon is the ‘prince that was promised,’ and his is the ‘song of ice and fire.’ Then, he enigmatically adds, ‘There must be one more...the dragon has three heads.’ The first two heads are evidently Rhaenys and Aegon. It’s possible that in whatever prophecy Rhaegar read, he thought that he needed to father a child off a Stark to produce the third head and the ‘song of ice and fire.’ Without further information we cannot speculate more, though. For a more indepth discussion of the topic, see the ‘Who is Azor Ahai reborn? Is he the same person as the Prince Who Was Promised?’ topic.

    Συμφωνω απολυτα οτι ο Rhaegar δεν απηγαγε την Lyanna. Αλλωστε όπως ειπατε παραπάνω... αν το ειχε κανει η Lyanna θα προσπαθουσε να το σκασει. Σκληρο καρυδι Very Happy
    Και επισης ειναι και το ολο a song of ice and fire που στην ουσια δειχνει οτι τα βιβλια αναφερονται σε κατι ή καποιον που συνδυαζει και τα δυο.

    Δεν θυμαμαι αν το λεει παραπανω και δεν ξερω αν υπάρχει στο 1ο βιβλιο παντως στην σειρα (1ο-2ο επ) λεει ο Ned στον Jon: "You might not have my name, but you have my blood". Εγω απο τοτε που ακουσα αυτο ειχα αμφιβολιες για το αν ειναι οντως γιος του. Δεν του λεει "εισαι γιος μου". του λεει "εισαι αιμα μου".


      ____________



    Nïx
    Φύλακας της Δύσης
    Φύλακας της Δύσης

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 3003
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 23
    Τόπος : King's Landing

    Armory
    : Lannister Lannister

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Nïx Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 3:54 am

    Μαρίνα, δεν διάβασα το ποστ σου ακόμα αλλά θα το κάνω.
    Υπαπαντή, παντρέψου με ρε γ@μώτο με τέτοιες θεωρίες tongue

    Δεν παίζει να τον αγαπούσε ο Ρόμπερτ τον Τζον, αν ήταν πράγματι παιδί Ρ+Λ. Στην ουσία θα σάστιζε και θα έμενε εκεί η πρόοδος, απλά θα κρατούσε το παιδί όσο πιο μακρυά μπορεί.-


      ____________

    “Once I faced a female with diamond skin," Nix said breathlessly. "I was transfixed - even as she was choking the life out of me."
    "Really?"
    "No, I saw that character on X-men. I just wanted to commiserate. Alas, I have no weaknesses."
    "Except your insanity," Lucia pointed out.
    sigh.
    "Well played, Archer.”



    Nix the Everknowing is the first Valkyrie made by Woden and Freya and therefore the most powerful Valkyrie. She is over 3,000 years old and was born "Phenix". She was once betrothed to Loki.

    She is a soothsayer and has gone mad from all the visions that she has seen. Her mind more in the future than in the present earned her the nickname Nucking Futs Nix.

    Lately the strain of steering the Accession and juggling possible futures has left her farther from sanity and ragged. Thought by many to be trying to obtain Goddess status due to her age and strength.


    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 11:12 am

    θα σε παντρευτώ,τα χουμε πει αυτά Cool

    Ούτε εγώ το πιστεύω και πολύ αλλά επειδή ο Νεντ και η Λυάννα ήταν οι άνθρωποι που αγαπούσε πιο πολύ στον κόσμο ίσως και να μαλάκωνε.Λίγο Razz
    Είναι το κακό του να αγαπάς τον άλλον με όσους τρόπους υπάρχουν Rolling Eyes
    Και για στο μεταφράσω στην διάλεκτο των Λάννιστερ-μπας και το καταλάβεις καλύτερα-Τζέιμι και Σέρσει tongue


      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

    Queen in the North
    Φύλακας του Βορρά
    Φύλακας του Βορρά

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 5866
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 10/07/2012
    Ηλικία : 21
    Τόπος : Winterfell

    Armory
    : Stark Stark

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Queen in the North Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 4:07 pm

    Εγω πιστευω οτι αν το μαθαινε ο Ρομπερτ θα διεταζε να τον σκοτωσουν....


      ____________



    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 7:06 pm

    Είναι όπως το βλέπει ο καθένας.Εγώ δεν τον θεωρώ τόσο αδίστακτα ψυχρό και πιστεύω ότι θα κανε τα πάντα για να ευχαριστήσει την Λυάννα.Και στο ποτάμι θα πεφτε που λένε give up

    Δε ζει κιόλας να τον ρωτήσουμε Razz


      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

    Nïx
    Φύλακας της Δύσης
    Φύλακας της Δύσης

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 3003
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 23
    Τόπος : King's Landing

    Armory
    : Lannister Lannister

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Nïx Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 7:11 pm

    Χμ; Τζέιμι/Σέρσεϊ; Εξηγήσου tongue


      ____________

    “Once I faced a female with diamond skin," Nix said breathlessly. "I was transfixed - even as she was choking the life out of me."
    "Really?"
    "No, I saw that character on X-men. I just wanted to commiserate. Alas, I have no weaknesses."
    "Except your insanity," Lucia pointed out.
    sigh.
    "Well played, Archer.”



    Nix the Everknowing is the first Valkyrie made by Woden and Freya and therefore the most powerful Valkyrie. She is over 3,000 years old and was born "Phenix". She was once betrothed to Loki.

    She is a soothsayer and has gone mad from all the visions that she has seen. Her mind more in the future than in the present earned her the nickname Nucking Futs Nix.

    Lately the strain of steering the Accession and juggling possible futures has left her farther from sanity and ragged. Thought by many to be trying to obtain Goddess status due to her age and strength.


    Queen in the North
    Φύλακας του Βορρά
    Φύλακας του Βορρά

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 5866
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 10/07/2012
    Ηλικία : 21
    Τόπος : Winterfell

    Armory
    : Stark Stark

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Queen in the North Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 7:18 pm

    Αsha Greyjoy έγραψε:Είναι όπως το βλέπει ο καθένας.Εγώ δεν τον θεωρώ τόσο αδίστακτα ψυχρό και πιστεύω ότι θα κανε τα πάντα για να ευχαριστήσει την Λυάννα.Και στο ποτάμι θα πεφτε που λένε give up

    Δε ζει κιόλας να τον ρωτήσουμε Razz

    εαν ζουσε η Lyanna και του ελεγε μην σκοτωσεις τον γιο μου τοτε μπορει και να μην το εκανε. Αλλα απο την στιγμη που η αγαπημενη του πεθανε και αυτος μεχρι να πεθανει νομιζε οτι ο Raegar την απηγαγε και την βιασε... θα τον σκοτωνε τον γλυκα μου.


      ____________



    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 7:24 pm

    Ότι αγαπιούνται μ΄όσους τρόπους υπάρχουν Razz

    Και παλι Μαρίνα,αν του έλεγε ότι είναι το θέλημά της να μην πάθει τίποτα;



      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

    Queen in the North
    Φύλακας του Βορρά
    Φύλακας του Βορρά

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 5866
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 10/07/2012
    Ηλικία : 21
    Τόπος : Winterfell

    Armory
    : Stark Stark

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Queen in the North Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 7:28 pm

    εξαρταται βασικα ποτε θα το μαθαινε. αν ηταν οταν ο jon ειχε μεγαλωσει και ειχε αποκτησει προσωπικοτητα δεν θα του εκανε τιποτα. αλλα αν ηταν οταν ηταν ακομα μωρο θα τον εβλεπε σαν τον καρπο του rhaegar και θα ηθελε να τον σκοτωσει.


      ____________



    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 7:36 pm

    Πραγματικά δε ξέρω.Αυτοί οι άντρες είναι ότι να ναι give up
    Μια έτσι και την άλλη γιουβέτσι give up


      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

    Queen in the North
    Φύλακας του Βορρά
    Φύλακας του Βορρά

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 5866
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 10/07/2012
    Ηλικία : 21
    Τόπος : Winterfell

    Armory
    : Stark Stark

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Queen in the North Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 7:41 pm

    γι αυτο μας αρεσουν μαλλον Rolling Eyes


      ____________



    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 7:43 pm

    Γι' αυτό.Αρκεί να μη μας βγάζουν εντελώς το λάδι Rolling Eyes


      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

    Nïx
    Φύλακας της Δύσης
    Φύλακας της Δύσης

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 3003
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 23
    Τόπος : King's Landing

    Armory
    : Lannister Lannister

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Nïx Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 8:11 pm

    όχι, αν την είχε βιάσει ο Ραίγκαρ και επιζούσε και γυρνούσε στον Ρόμπερτ με τον Τζον, θα το κρατούσαν το παιδί. Αν είχε πάει με την θέλησή της και επιζούσε, θα την σκότωνε ο ίδιος ο Ρόμπερτ tongue


      ____________

    “Once I faced a female with diamond skin," Nix said breathlessly. "I was transfixed - even as she was choking the life out of me."
    "Really?"
    "No, I saw that character on X-men. I just wanted to commiserate. Alas, I have no weaknesses."
    "Except your insanity," Lucia pointed out.
    sigh.
    "Well played, Archer.”



    Nix the Everknowing is the first Valkyrie made by Woden and Freya and therefore the most powerful Valkyrie. She is over 3,000 years old and was born "Phenix". She was once betrothed to Loki.

    She is a soothsayer and has gone mad from all the visions that she has seen. Her mind more in the future than in the present earned her the nickname Nucking Futs Nix.

    Lately the strain of steering the Accession and juggling possible futures has left her farther from sanity and ragged. Thought by many to be trying to obtain Goddess status due to her age and strength.


    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 8:28 pm

    Μετά τη Στέλλα,η Λυάννα tongue Σα πολύ τηλεόραση δε βλέπεις εσύ; tongue


      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

    Nïx
    Φύλακας της Δύσης
    Φύλακας της Δύσης

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 3003
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 23
    Τόπος : King's Landing

    Armory
    : Lannister Lannister

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Nïx Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 8:30 pm

    ποια στέλλα μωρή; ούτε ξέρω ούτε με νοιάζει, εγώ απλά σου λέω πως έχω ψυχογραφήσει τον ρόμπερτ tongue ΔΙΑΦΩΝΕΙΣ; tongue


      ____________

    “Once I faced a female with diamond skin," Nix said breathlessly. "I was transfixed - even as she was choking the life out of me."
    "Really?"
    "No, I saw that character on X-men. I just wanted to commiserate. Alas, I have no weaknesses."
    "Except your insanity," Lucia pointed out.
    sigh.
    "Well played, Archer.”



    Nix the Everknowing is the first Valkyrie made by Woden and Freya and therefore the most powerful Valkyrie. She is over 3,000 years old and was born "Phenix". She was once betrothed to Loki.

    She is a soothsayer and has gone mad from all the visions that she has seen. Her mind more in the future than in the present earned her the nickname Nucking Futs Nix.

    Lately the strain of steering the Accession and juggling possible futures has left her farther from sanity and ragged. Thought by many to be trying to obtain Goddess status due to her age and strength.


    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 8:31 pm

    ΑΠΟΛΥΤΑ tongue Σιγά μη σκότωνε ο Ρόμπερτ τη Λυάννα.Εδώ δε σκότωσε την Σέρσει Facepalm


      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

    Nïx
    Φύλακας της Δύσης
    Φύλακας της Δύσης

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 3003
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 23
    Τόπος : King's Landing

    Armory
    : Lannister Lannister

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Nïx Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 8:38 pm

    Ρε κούκλα μου, φαντάσου η Λυάνα και ο Ραίγκαρ να ήταν ζευγάρι στα κρυφά, ή να ερωτεύτηκαν κλπ κλπ. Και μετά η Λυάνα επιστρέφει με τον Τζον αγκαλιά. YOU SPARE HER? Ως Ρόμπερτ; tongue


      ____________

    “Once I faced a female with diamond skin," Nix said breathlessly. "I was transfixed - even as she was choking the life out of me."
    "Really?"
    "No, I saw that character on X-men. I just wanted to commiserate. Alas, I have no weaknesses."
    "Except your insanity," Lucia pointed out.
    sigh.
    "Well played, Archer.”



    Nix the Everknowing is the first Valkyrie made by Woden and Freya and therefore the most powerful Valkyrie. She is over 3,000 years old and was born "Phenix". She was once betrothed to Loki.

    She is a soothsayer and has gone mad from all the visions that she has seen. Her mind more in the future than in the present earned her the nickname Nucking Futs Nix.

    Lately the strain of steering the Accession and juggling possible futures has left her farther from sanity and ragged. Thought by many to be trying to obtain Goddess status due to her age and strength.


    Queen in the North
    Φύλακας του Βορρά
    Φύλακας του Βορρά

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 5866
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 10/07/2012
    Ηλικία : 21
    Τόπος : Winterfell

    Armory
    : Stark Stark

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Queen in the North Την / Το Πεμ Ιουλ 12, 2012 10:03 pm

    νομιζω ναι. θα την αφηνε να ζησει... οπως λεει.. την αγαπουσε. τοσα χρονια μετα και μολις πηγε στο winterfell ηθελε να παει στον ταφο της. δεν μπορει, την αγαπουσε. αλλα μετα θα την απατουσε περισσοτερο με την δικαιολογια οτι το εκανε και αυτη.


      ____________



    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Παρ Ιουλ 13, 2012 12:05 am

    Cersei Lannister έγραψε:Ρε κούκλα μου, φαντάσου η Λυάνα και ο Ραίγκαρ να ήταν ζευγάρι στα κρυφά, ή να ερωτεύτηκαν κλπ κλπ. Και μετά η Λυάνα επιστρέφει με τον Τζον αγκαλιά. YOU SPARE HER? Ως Ρόμπερτ; tongue

    Τι σε χει πιάσει εσένα βραδιάτικα;Σενάριο για βραζιλιάνικα γράφεις; tongue

    Απάντησε πολύ σωστά η Μαρίνα.Αν και δε πιστεύω ότι θα την απατούσε.Το ότι απατούσε την Σέρσει έγκειται στο ότι δε τον ικανοποιούσε σαν συζυγος.Μην κατηγορούμε κι όποιον να ναι lol Και στο κάτω κάτω χαζή είναι να του πει τι έκανε και τι δεν έκανε με τον Rhaegar; tongue Ότι κατάλαβε ο καθένας κατάλαβε winking

    Ο Ρόμπερτ δε θα σκότωνε την Λυάννα.Κερί και βούλα Razz

    Ούτε και γω θα τη σκότωνα tongue


      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

    Queen in the North
    Φύλακας του Βορρά
    Φύλακας του Βορρά

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 5866
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 10/07/2012
    Ηλικία : 21
    Τόπος : Winterfell

    Armory
    : Stark Stark

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Queen in the North Την / Το Παρ Ιουλ 13, 2012 12:08 am

    οτι δεν θα την σκοτωνε δεν θα την σκοτωνε αλλα καπου στο 1ο βιβλιο ο Νεντ θυμαμαι τι του ειχε πει η Λυαννα την μερα του αρραβωνα. οτι ο ερωτας και ο γαμος δεν αλλαζει την φυση του αντρα. οτι θα την απατουσε το πιστευω γιατι παρολο που θα την αγαπουσε θα εβλεπε οτι αυτη δεν τον αγαπαει. μπορει με τα χρονια να τον ψιλοαγαπουσε αλλα καμια σχεση με τον ερωτα που ειχε για τον Ραέγκαρ...

    ακυρο αλλα χθες λογω βαρεμαρας σκεφτομουν game of thrones και... υπάρχει αρκετα μεγαλη περιπτωση οταν ο Ραεγκαρ εμαθε οτι η Λυαννα ειναι εγκυος να παντρευτηκαν...


      ____________



    Arianne Martell
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια
    Κόκκινη Ιέρεια

    Αριθμός μηνυμάτων : 625
    Ημερομηνία εγγραφής : 04/05/2012
    Ηλικία : 24
    Τόπος : Sunspear

    Armory
    : Baratheon Baratheon

    Απ: R+L=J

    Δημοσίευση από Arianne Martell Την / Το Παρ Ιουλ 13, 2012 12:19 am

    Άβυσσος η ψυχή του άντρα give up Δε βρίσκεις άκρη give up

    Ναι αμέ,γιατί όχι; Awesome Και γω όπως κι άλλοι το πιστεύουν ότι την παντρεύτηκε και πριν μείνει έγκυος.

    Ήταν πραγματικός ιππότης το καμάρι μου Crying or Very sad

    Και για μένα οι Rhaegar/Lyanna είναι το πρώτο ζευγάρι που κόλλησα στο ΑΣΟΙΑΦ.Από την πρώτη στιγμή που διάβασα την ιστορία τους I love you


      ____________
    Stars,hide your fires;
    Let not light see my black and deep desires.

      Η τρέχουσα ημερομηνία/ώρα είναι Τρι Δεκ 06, 2016 6:01 pm